On Post Modernism in the New York Times.

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JGropp
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On Post Modernism in the New York Times.

Postby JGropp » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:50 pm

Image
Here's a link to a recent NYT article on Post Modernism- a "style"
which I heartily dislike. Jerry



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Postby Joe » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:32 pm

not a fan of post-modern either :(

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Portland City Hall-

Postby JGropp » Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:31 pm

Joe- Portland City Hall is one of
my least liked of all these. Jerry

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Postby Udo Min » Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:07 am

Mr. Gropp-
Here is an interesting challenge:
Take the first photo of this Seven Sister's Cliff & draw a napkin sketch of a mid-century home to replace the structure in foreground...

http://www.solarnavigator.net/geography ... _coast.htm

Think of going back to your years of when you were still in Architecture school. It would be interesting to see what your sketch would look like.

Just the essence of a design would be fine.

If we like it-
Your hired-
Udo & Saskia

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no need to replace-

Postby JGropp » Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:29 am

Last edited by JGropp on Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby jesgord » Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:58 pm

There was an interesting portion in Visual Acoustics which chronicled Julius Shulman's decision to "retire" from architectural photography because of the growing popularity of post-modern architecture. Can't say I blame him.
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yet another negative-

Postby JGropp » Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:59 pm


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Postby Joe » Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:56 pm


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Re: On Post Modernism in the New York Times.

Postby FRaC » Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:49 am


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Re: On Post Modernism in the New York Times.

Postby Joe » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:40 am


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Re: On Post Modernism in the New York Times.

Postby JGropp » Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:03 pm


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Postby Joe » Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:08 pm

right on, Jerry! FRaC's comment seems to come from a consumer viewpoint, where your belief runs beyond consumption, rather a duty as an architect.

Post-Modernism evolved during a period of high mass consumption. It's my view that some architects and designers during that period looked inward for more personal gratification, rather than solving design issues of the day. they lost their mission of providing good design for everyone.

Your service, Jerry, is a noble thing.
Last edited by Joe on Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Thanks-

Postby JGropp » Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:54 pm

Thanks Joe for the kind words. J-

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you've got it right!

Postby JGropp » Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:39 pm

[quote="Joe"]right on, Jerry! FRaC's comment seems to come from a consumer viewpoint, where your belief runs beyond consumption, rather a duty as an architect.

Post-Modernism evolved during a period of mass consumption. It's my view that some architects and designers during that period looked inward for more personal gratification, rather than solving design issues of the day. they lost their mission of providing good design for everyone. {quote]

Joe- I think you've got it right. J-

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i don't think you got it quite right!

Postby FRaC » Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:45 pm


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differing vs "attacking"-

Postby JGropp » Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:40 am

FRaC- It's not a matter of
"attacking other architects"-
but simply differing with their
approach to architecture. Jerry

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Re: i don't think you got it quite right!

Postby Joe » Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:54 am


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compromise per se-

Postby JGropp » Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:57 am

Joe-
As to: "thankfully I am not an architect.
If I was, I would have starved long ago.
compromise is not a popular characteristic
with me".

As an office partner once imparted to me:
"don't talk to people about things they just
don't understand". (It's a very good way to
avoid compromise). (usually)
Jerry-

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Materials

Postby clarksdaleplace » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:45 pm

It seems to me that so much of architectural style is dictated by the materials - price, availability, etc. When concrete was cheap - what do you know we get Brasilia and tons of poured concrete structures.
Of course what was inexpensive to use in 1957 might be expensive now and what is affordable now wasn't available in 1957. I sometimes think that McMansions are a direct byproduct of the advancement in the technology of cost effective materials even though we all agree that the result is pretty mediocre at best.
http://www.clarksdaleplace.blogspot.com

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as to the influence of materials on design-

Postby JGropp » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:43 pm

clarksdaleplace-
I certainly do agree with you, Jerry-

Enjoyed your BlogSpot. Take a look
at my WebSite below for our '50s
MCM house redo. Lots of fun to do.

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Postby clarksdaleplace » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:29 pm

Hey Jerry,
Thanks - very cool place. Good job. I dream of walls of windows. We found a place in Oak Cliff in Dallas that fit the bill but someone snatched it up before we were ready to buy.
Our place is fairly 'traditional' as far as MCM goes but we are hoping to have some fun with it,
thnx again
Charles/clarksdale

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I've been pondering why-

Postby JGropp » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:33 pm

Image
I've been pondering why I find
this an unsatisfactory design
on what looks like a nice site. The
small, arbitrarily placed windows
start the list. Plus- I wonder why
there's no landscaping evident. J-

PS- How has this house stood the
test of time? Any photos of it today?

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Re: I've been pondering why-

Postby Joe » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:55 pm


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Postby clarksdaleplace » Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:05 pm

[quote]I find the shape unnecessary and overscaled, which plagues much of today's public and commercial architecture[quote]
I remember my American Arch class in grad school. We learned that back in the olden days there were no architects per se, just professional gentlemen like Th Jefferson. Anyway when they went to build a house or a church they remembered - well the alter went there - there was a steeple, so on and so forth, the same for houses. So they got the right STUFF in the right place but what they didnt account for was proportion. So most early american arch has an awkwardness to it. I think that continues as you look at McMansions that try to accommodate modern living yet ignores any sense of proportionality. Anyway I think this building suffers from a bit of that.
http://www.clarksdaleplace.blogspot.com

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JG Reply to clarksdaleplace-

Postby JGropp » Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:37 pm

clarksdaleplace- Very well put!
You've put your finger on yet more
of the things I think are certainly not
designworthy-
to say the least. Jerry

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PostModern further along-

Postby JGropp » Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:49 pm

Image
Yet another Venturi
The Seattle Downtown Art Museum
which I like even less
than his houses. Jerry-

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I LOVE ARCHITECTURE!!!

Postby spaceghost » Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:59 pm

I can understand not liking something. Architecture like art is subjective. While you might love the Picasso hanging on your wall I might love the velvet painting of Elvis on my wall. What I do not understand is how as architecture lovers people cannot look beyond a label and really understand just how important this house is. It is amazing to me the amount of nitpicking I am reading about this house here. Is it because Venturi is not a member of this forum? Is it because the house is not labeled as MCM? Other people post photos of their own “MCM” houses and people lavish them with praise. I know some folks are just trying to be nice to other forum members, but come on guys some of your negative comments about the Vanna Venturi House are like dumping on the Stahl house because it has too much glass or the Eames DCW because it is made of plywood.

The Vanna Venturi House is extremely complex and every detail from the “arbitrarily placed windows” to the “shape and scale” was thought out with extreme care. In fact the house went through six fully designed iterations before it was constructed. It is easily one of the most important and influential works of modern architecture in the US. Of course as an architect I am biased but I feel, love it or hate it, it is important to understand it. You can learn more about this directly from the architect himself where he discusses most of the comments made about this house. http://www.vsba.com/projects/fla_archive/10.html#top

Here are some photos taken by Eames Demitrios of the Vanna Venturi House in 2008. You can see the amount of care the current owners have shown for this house.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eamesd/set ... 461600331/

I am not a Venturi apologist. I do not think every building he designed is amazing. I am not a post-modern apologist. I do not believe all (or even most) post-modern architecture is amazing. Just as I do not believe all modern architecture is amazing. When dogmatic and a priori thinking steps in the way of pragmatic solutions architecture suffers. I do not dream of 1000 years ago, I do not dream of 100 years ago and I do not dream of 50 years ago, nor do I dream of 1000 years from now. I am not a modern architect; I am a contemporary architect with my feet firmly planted in the now facing forward.

One of my favorite quotes about architecture comes from Le Corbusier. “You employ stone, wood and concrete, and with these materials you build houses and palaces. That is construction. Ingenuity is at work. But suddenly you touch my heart, you do me good, I am happy and I say: “This is beautiful.” That is Architecture. Art enters in. My house is practical. I thank you, as I might thank Railway engineers, or the Telephone service. You have not touched my heart. But suppose that walls rise towards heaven in such a way that I am moved. I perceive your intentions. Your mood has been gentle, brutal, charming or noble. The stones you have erected tell me so. You fix me to the place and my eyes regard it. They behold something which expresses a thought. A thought which reveals itself without word or sound, but solely by means of shapes which stand in a certain relationship to one another. These shapes are such that they are clearly revealed in light. The relationships between them have not necessarily any reference to what is practical or descriptive. They are a mathematical creation of your mind. They are the language of Architecture. By the use of inert materials and starting from conditions more or less utilitarian, you have established certain relationships which have aroused my emotions. This is Architecture.”

I LOVE ARCHITECTURE!!!

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Postby clarksdaleplace » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:40 pm

I recognize that Michelangelo is a great artist. I just don't like any of his art [as an aside I am not a fan of most Italian Renaissance work - Northern/German Renaissance is another story]. I guess I feel that way about this house.
I remember asking my Realtor if in 50 years people would be gushing over McMansions - loving the granite or whatever. And she said no. The houses and structures we like today were significant in their own time. There was a lot of dreck built in the 50's but most of that is gone now so we are left with the 'cream.' That is one reason why people think that the past was better - we tend to only remember the good bits and the best of the best is what lasts.
I think the reason so many people gush over MCMs today is that I believe many feel that it is 1- a miracle it got built in a relatively large scale in the first place and 2 - that a good deal of it still remains [I mean those buildings don't look like what a house is 'supposed to look like'].
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"Meaningful Architecture?"-

Postby JGropp » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:51 pm

Image
"Meaningful Architecture?"-
Sorry-
I don't find this to be so. Jerry

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Postby spaceghost » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:47 pm



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