LED lighting

Home improvement Q&A, pictures and news fro Mid Century Modern Homes and Houses(NOT for Real Estate)

Moderators: I_LUV_POWER!!!!, Joe, Adriene, moderns-r-us, Tony, Futura Girl, nichols, Java

[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
User avatar
classic form
Special Secret Modern Agent
Posts: 731
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:23 am
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

LED lighting

Postby classic form » Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:32 pm


User avatar
scowsa
Modern Guru
Posts: 1366
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:47 pm
Location: Culver City, CA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby scowsa » Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:33 pm

When we were building our new house in '09 I looked into LED and also found it a bit confusing because the lumens per watt was not a constant across similar wattage lights. (We eventually rejected it for cost and and aesthetic reasons, preferring the smaller openings of halogen lights.)

I believe this is because LED technology in still developing so the conversion of watts into lumens is getting better. However, it also means the lumens per watt will vary by manufacturer.

I do recall that the CREE folks were seen as ahead of the curve and Home Depot now sells their downlight which fits into standard 6" housings.

That has a stated Light output of 575 lumens for 10.5 watts and if you look at standard incandescent bulbs that is what you get from a 60W bulbs, so the lumens per watt on the LED are 54.8 vs 9.6 on the incandescent.

However, then the other variable of "fixture efficacy" pops up as folks argue that such LED lights direct all their light downwards while other fixtures are less efficient.

This is covered in this article



Which goes on to say that:
Until standards are finalized, if you want to buy an LED bulb and want to get what you pay for, rather than just guessing do the following:
Ask for side by side pictures of the bulb that is being replaced as well as getting footcandle measurements (with a light meter) for both (if possible). This will show and tell you that the LED bulb is giving the brightness and color that you're expecting as well as the beam spread (the 3 most important factors of an LED bulb).

Good luck.
scowsa

egads
Mondo Lounge Lizard
Posts: 1671
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:25 pm
Location: Long Beach CA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby egads » Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:32 pm

Is there a photo of how the current lights are mounted?

The toughest part for you is if these things are outside.(I think) A conversion lamp will have the electronics in the base. Because your house is not in Southern California, this could be a problem. My other thought, a compact florescent would also not be happy outside in freezing weather. A regular incandescent lamp is the most forgiving and the easiest to dim.

However, if what you really want to do is redo the whole way the skylights are lit, post some photos and I may have some ideas of ways to use the switched sources to light the wells in a different way.

User avatar
classic form
Special Secret Modern Agent
Posts: 731
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:23 am
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby classic form » Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:34 pm

Thanks guys...here are a couple of pictures of the round living room skylights:

Lights on, night time, living room.

Image

Image


Lights off, night time living room.

Image

Image

Outside round, living room.
Image


Lights off, day time, family room, no windows in room.


Image

Outside rectangle, family room.

Image


The lighting print shows these as 300 watts ea. Not sure what they ended up being but they are sealed similar to what you would find in a pool. I don't like going up on the roof (obvious by the debris:) so I was thinking that the longer between lamp changes the better. Heat is also a big issue.

Look forward to your ideas on this.

egads
Mondo Lounge Lizard
Posts: 1671
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:25 pm
Location: Long Beach CA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby egads » Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:01 pm

So the existing fixtures hold reflector lamps? Have you ever replaced a lamp in one? It would be nice to lower the operating cost. If you don't dim them, I would suggest using a compact fluorescent reflector lamp in the existing fixture. That would be cheap to buy and cheap to operate. I do hesitate because of the freezing weather you probably experience. I know some fluorescent ballasts won't work in low temps. Just look at the specs of what you buy. If the light wells are deep enough the lighting could be moved inside. While the roof is off is when to rewire to make that happen. Then you could use LED strip lighting. The color and brightness of them has markedly improved. But really, the effect you currently have is good.

pgharchfan
Modern Fan
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 11:10 am
Location: USA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby pgharchfan » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:49 am

For wattage with LED, you'll look for something that's about 70% less than the regular incandescent wattage. That will give you approximately the same lumen output.

So a 20 watt MR-16 becomes about a 3 watt LED.

An example of an inexpensive long life fixture that could do the job is a 12 watt LED with integral transformer.

http://vistapro.com/Product.aspx?ProdID ... 3&typeID=1

With LED, you'll get asked about "color temperature" of the light, as there are several different light outputs based on the type of LED used in the fixture. The cheap solar lights use a bluish-tint LED. There's everything including "warm white" incandescent now.

I would avoid using a LED converter lamp in an outdoor fixture. There's not enough airflow / ventilation to dissipate the heat as there would be with a can light or other interior application, so you'll burn out the expensive driver electronics quickly. You want a fixture designed from the ground-up as LED.

In Michigan, you also do not want a CFL in that application due to the aforementioned issues with temperature and ballasts.

You'll enjoy your lighting more when it is low wattage LED!

egads
Mondo Lounge Lizard
Posts: 1671
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:25 pm
Location: Long Beach CA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby egads » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:17 am

The existing mounts are so close to use an LED fixture. My experience with them is that they do not have the spread of a incandescent flood or a reflector CFL. However, this has gotten much better. My last LED install was a tape, mounted into a channel with a diffuser. Used for under cabinet lighting. It was really good at creating a broad enough light to cover the counter.

The spec sheet of the fixture pgharchfan links does show it available in three beam spreads. Photometrics (chart of cones showing the size and intensity of the light at different distances) are probably still being done, as this is a brand new fixture. Their photometrics link lists these new fixtures without the clickable files.

There is also no spec about the environment it will work in.
That gives me pause because they are so expensive.
I think I'd want to try both floods and both neutral & warm white.
Alas, how to try so many examples? I think I'd just get ahold of Vista and ask. Perhaps a rep in your area could be persuaded to hook up some samples?

Oh, and one other thing: the set up looks quite adaptable. You could go ahead and have the roof done and then mount a fixtures like these later. I would want to make sure all the junction boxes will open and the threaded mounting of the existing fixtures can be unscrewed. Check the condition of the conduit. All should be in good enough condition to last as long as the roofing you are putting on.

User avatar
classic form
Special Secret Modern Agent
Posts: 731
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:23 am
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby classic form » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:53 am

I've got a couple of links on my desktop that I can post later today of some marine lights that look promising...maybe you can look them over and tell me what you think?

The electrician my roofers are using is telling them that the supports don't meet code and will need to be redone. I was going to have them redone anyway but using the same style and material but I'm not sure if they will do this now. Not sure what isn't code about conduit but maybe its for indoor use only...no problems in 50 years with it but hey, lets try something new and unproven:)

egads
Mondo Lounge Lizard
Posts: 1671
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:25 pm
Location: Long Beach CA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby egads » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:39 am

If the conduit is EMT that would not be OK used like that. (it can be used outdoors, but must be supported) Rigid conduit would be OK. Perhaps the electrician thinks the conduit is not what it is. Or he's right and it's only luck (and slathered tar) that has allowed it to work this long.

User avatar
classic form
Special Secret Modern Agent
Posts: 731
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:23 am
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby classic form » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:47 pm

Hopefully he can reproduce it (the look).
Here is a link of a few fixtures...I'm thinking of using one of the 50 watt 110/240 lamps or the 198 marine flood.

http://www.led-cfl-lighthouse.com/page/401659680

It would be great to be able to use one of the less expensive of the three. I have four of them to buy.

pgharchfan
Modern Fan
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 11:10 am
Location: USA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby pgharchfan » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:52 pm

Uhh... get a sample of what he's selling before you move ahead. This is a stock fixture body where there's a retrofit LED array.

I would be concerned about color temperature of the light and longevity with heat from the driver since the fixture isn't a "from the ground up" LED design with heat sink.

Egads mention of optics is right on. A good manufacturer can supply photometrics to tell you where the light is going to go... the Vista for example is available in 12 degree, 35 degree and 50 degree spreads, just like a halogen reflector-ized lamp.

The fixture you're looking at is a "blaster" so you'll lose a lot of light to spill since there are no optics to direct it.

User avatar
classic form
Special Secret Modern Agent
Posts: 731
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:23 am
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby classic form » Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:34 am

At 8.4 watts do you think that the "vista" would do the job of the existing 300 watt incandescent lamps? I see that one of the fixtures in the link I provided was designed from the ground up but hovers around 1000usd...a little too pricey.

egads
Mondo Lounge Lizard
Posts: 1671
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:25 pm
Location: Long Beach CA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby egads » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:32 am

Well you have to find out what the wattage is of the lamp currently installed.
It may not be the 300 watt spec. I'm sure they have been replaced. If they are currently 150 watts, then a 9 watt LED is about right. I tried to find the price for the Vista ones, but it seems to be a big secret. While I understand companies and distributors wanting to keep this information close to the vest, posting MSRP, so the us mere mortals can do some comparison wouldn't kill them.

User avatar
classic form
Special Secret Modern Agent
Posts: 731
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:23 am
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby classic form » Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:02 am

Currently installed is 300 watts per lamp and let me tell you when they are on it looks like a football stadium from the outside:) Talk about spillage.

I've got a couple of spares, the connections (lamp base) look like old car headlights, two male tabs.

egads
Mondo Lounge Lizard
Posts: 1671
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:25 pm
Location: Long Beach CA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby egads » Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:37 am

OK. I hesitated to suggest just moving the lighting inside, up deep in the light well. (provided the light wells are deep enough to hide a lighting source. It would definitely keep the hardware out of the elements. However, I bet the current effect is really good. However now you report that the "effect" is not so good outside. Most of the LEDs would mitigate the outrageous spill. I would really want to try at least two types of LED fixtures now, before the electrical set up has been changed.

User avatar
classic form
Special Secret Modern Agent
Posts: 731
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:23 am
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby classic form » Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:00 am

Yes, the spill was another reason for the leds. I heard back from the electrician, he says that code states that there must be 5 supports for the junction box, there are only 3 currently on the round skylights and 4 on the square. I'm trying to decide whether to change them at all now or just leave them as is. 5 supports is a little ridiculous if you ask me.

User avatar
classic form
Special Secret Modern Agent
Posts: 731
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:23 am
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby classic form » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:02 am

More information from the manufacturer:

50 watt was designed from the ground up, 90 degree, waterproof, 2500 lumens, color temp. is 6000k which is the only color they use for floodlights.

The 198 is retrofitted halogen.

So, I am looking at using the 50 watt (fourth one down in my link).

http://www.led-cfl-lighthouse.com/page/401659680

Any thoughts?

egads
Mondo Lounge Lizard
Posts: 1671
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:25 pm
Location: Long Beach CA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby egads » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:16 am

I think 90 degrees is still too wide. And all the stuff they have narrower is way brighter. Still a lot less than 300 watts, but you state that a lot of the existing 300 is wasted as spill. It's so situational, trying a sample is the only way.

pgharchfan
Modern Fan
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 11:10 am
Location: USA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby pgharchfan » Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:50 pm

Yeah....

You want a 35 degree beam spread maximum to get the light downward and not illuminate your roof. (that's why you need optics). Your existing PAR reflector-ized lamps even have some optics to them... like a headlight.

And you want warmer white... something around 3000K. Otherwise it will look like a car dealership or a stadium. Google "lighting color temperature".

modfan
Space Cadet (over 2001 posts)
Posts: 2091
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 8:28 am
Location: East of Balboa Highlands in Sylmar
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

maybe it's changed

Postby modfan » Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:44 pm

And I'd be all for using LED.
My experience was buying some for a bathroom fixture (4 'candle' lites)
replacement but when I put them in they were WWWAAAYYY too dim
I put then in the other bath that had an additional light source. Altho now I see em being sold in Lowe's maybe they have more appropriate ones.

User avatar
johnnyapollo
Special Secret Modern Agent
Posts: 632
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 7:28 pm
Location: Atlanta GA
Contact:

Postby johnnyapollo » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:54 am

I too did not have a good experience buying LED lighting. I found some replacement 12v floods to replace some 50w Halogens. They are/were marked MR16 White, 36 LED 1.8W and were marketed as a comperable replacement. Three bulbs produced a light blue light that was perhaps 1/20th the lumens of the halogens. I tried them in a walk-in closet and they were so dim you couldn't make out anything in shadow or near shadow. If you do purchase, make sure you can return them.

-- John
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Philip K. Dick

Desperately Seeking Modern
http://modernseeker.blogspot.com

User avatar
scowsa
Modern Guru
Posts: 1366
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:47 pm
Location: Culver City, CA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby scowsa » Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:19 pm

Was reading this blog today


and the author shares his positive experience of using these:

scowsa


[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Return to “Mid Century Modern Houses and Homes”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests