Perhaps the most important thing about MCMs-

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JGropp
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Perhaps the most important thing about MCMs-

Postby JGropp » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:37 pm

Perhaps the most important thing about
MCMs- are Job-built Custom windows.
Image
Here's a simple Detail I often use.
It has a factory made insulglas unit.
The thickness usually depends on the
combined dimensions, area of the unit.

So very few- if any- of the MCMs we
admire had stock windows. What was
then known as "Fenestration"was
always a very important part of the
architect's "design assigment".
Jerry

Last edited by JGropp on Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Slim and Gabby » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:06 am

Thanks for pointing this out, Jerry.

One of the critical things I look for in home is..
proper fenestration!
I can never get realtors to understand that "new windows" is not a plus to me. It takes a few home visits for them to understand.

We had a devil of a time getting a glass company to understand we wanted them to just build a second pane into our existing windows versus adding some factory built schlock.

In our case, we wanted to preserve our quirky colored glass windows in the living room:
[img]
by , on Flickr[/img]

But cheap vinyl windows really don't add anything. I also read that they are a real issue in fire country ( here)....the frames just melt in the heat and admit the fire into your home.

Pity you can only get the tax credit on those. I assume they have great lobbyists!

One of the homes we've seen is 80% intact except for the cruddy new windows, but so underpriced, it would be worth replacing them.
Anyway- you can bet we'll be using your diagram if we have to retrofit decent windows into our next home. Gotta be some craftspeople out there who 'get it'.

Gabby
Pen-gu-ins is pracatically chickinz, and I hates to see chickinz cry so much, I has to put’em outta ther mizzery!

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well put!

Postby JGropp » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:22 am

Gabby-
As you say: "cheap vinyl windows
really don't add anything" well put!
Jerry

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Postby Dan O. » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:31 am

Having had to once build a conventional double-pane window to match existing items on my mom's house I can tell you I'm crazy about simple site-built windows on MCMs, what could possibly make more sense? Which brings up the question of what happens when you try remodeling/repairing an MCM in California (that may have been built with site built windows) and now you have title 24 issues to deal with; I know it can't be as simple as incorporating double pane glass in the original design.

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Postby Slim and Gabby » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:54 am

Before we decided to move, I was going to replace the rest of our windows. This would have meant removing the fascia, fortunately we have "board and batten", so it would have been quite time consuming, but the end result would have been optimal. Aluminum windows have a large fin around them, which necessitates removing the fascia if you don't want to use, gulp, replacement windows, ughughugh! I'm a huge fan of double-hung, or sash-windows: if you want double pane windows, just ad more of the counter weight, after you've had a new pane made that slips into the old frame, oh, and taken a router to the frame to deepen it so you can glaze it properly.
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Postby Dan O. » Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:32 am

Sorry, I was typing faster than my brain was working. I was making a comparison between the complexity of replicating a factory made (circa 1949) double-hung window and the simplicity of replicating something like a site-built sliding pane window similar to what you'd see on a Cliff May prefab (even though those items were likely factory built as well). The double-hung windows on most traditional mid-century homes need specifically milled components (the sill, stucco molding, etc) while the beauty of the other is that they can be readily fabbed up with little more than lumber and a table saw - I love that aspect.

Part of the job on my mom's house did actually involve incorporating double pane glass but we didn't pull any permits; I really have no way of knowing if what I did would've been in compliance. I guess my real question is this - say you are working with an MCM with simple site-built windows and would would either like to replace damaged and/or removed windows or build an addition using methods like those employed in the homes original construction - could it be done or would title 24 compliance make it impossible?

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would title 24 compliance make it impossible?

Postby JGropp » Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:47 am

Dan O- As to your "would title 24
compliance make it impossible?"-
I have to confess my not knowing
what 24 says. My detail shows only
structure and glazing- not a frame
which is usually what's regulated.

Checking this with a Plan Examiner
friend of mine to see what he says.
Jerry

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eMail to a MI Plan Examiner friend

Postby JGropp » Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:57 am

Image
Waiting to see what Paul says. J-

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Postby Slim and Gabby » Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:30 pm

Dan-O, "Code compliance, gosh, I have no idea what you're talking about, gee-whiz, as far as I can remember it's always been that way..." As I always say, "Ignorance is 9/10th of the law". As I seem to remember, in CA, you sell your house as-is if it's an older house: doesn't it have to be something like 40-years? A lot of that permit stuff is pure doo-doo, not always though. In our town, they wanted us to get a permit for a big dumpster when I cleaned out the garage, so we got two small ones instead. Where my brother lives in Placerville, CA, it's illegal to shut your own water main off, you have to "hire a professional" to do this, WTF! Wow, having to pay someone twice for literally 20-seconds work, if even that! On the other hand, back in the 1960's, someone did an addition to my mothers house, before we had it, when some one does that kind of work Gabby and I refer to that as a Spritle and Chim-chim job (Speed Racer):
Image

Slim
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Postby scowsa » Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:27 pm

For those non-CA folks out there, Title 24 is also know as The Energy Efficiency Standards for Residential and Nonresidential Buildings, established in response to a legislative mandate to reduce California's energy consumption. The standards are updated periodically to allow consideration and possible incorporation of new energy efficiency technologies and methods.

Having recently built a new house I chose to learn a lot about Title 24, although the architect is the one that makes that submission as part of the planning process, having had the plans viewed by a Title 24 specialist. Then the building inspectors, as part of their normal job, review such factors as lighting to ensure the build is happening in line with what was proposed on the plans.

Looking back in my bookmarks, I found this about renovations.

If a building permit is required for a construction project, then compliance with Title 24 is required. Requirements then differ depending on the type of renovation project. Generally, larger projects are additions and smaller projects are alterations. Because additions are larger and are more significantly increasing energy consumption, there are more requirements to meet the code. Alterations are small projects and have fewer requirements and are more easily satisfied procedurally.

My experience of folks having window replacements on various sorts of houses is that a permit is typically not pulled so this never arises.

Also, Gabby seem to suggest that the tax credit for replacement windows only applied to vinyl ones. It's my understanding that it applies to any windows that are ENERGY STAR qualified.
Last edited by scowsa on Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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JG End-Run attempt-

Postby JGropp » Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:40 pm

Thanks Scowsa- How would my
window detail shown above fare
with a CA Plan Examiner? I'm
awaiting my MI PE friend's take
on this JG End-Run attempt. JG

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Postby scowsa » Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:03 pm

scowsa

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stuff that you don't need-

Postby JGropp » Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:02 pm

Scowse- In my JGWindows the
double glass units are the same-
just without all that factory-built
trim stuff that you don't need or
have to pay for- including some
salesman's commissions. Jerry
Image

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Postby egads » Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:51 pm

One can get replacement windows that look right, but they are hard to get from a window salesman. It takes research. If one really like double hung windows, Anderson, Pella & most of the other major manufacturers make them. I pulled out vinyl replacements and put in Anderson ones in my friends mid thirties traditional house. The previous owner had added one of the windows and I had to get sill material and recreate the original look on it.

Here in the Long Beach Ranchos, there are a lot of vinyl replacements in the bathrooms because some have the window in the bath/shower. (I have a shower curtain against the window wall to protect mine) There was a local company that makes shutters that briefly offered Window and door units for our houses new. But had to sell them unglazed. Now they don't sell them at all. (nobody ever found out why they stopped) For an operable windows there are national standards for air infiltration.

I was working on a small addition that did get some fixed windows, site built.
But they got dual glaze panes. One of them was supposedly the largest size available. Those installers also replaced the single glazed panes for dual in all the single lite french doors.

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my least favorite-

Postby JGropp » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:23 pm

Double-hung windows are my
least favorite windows- I have
never liked- or used hese. J-

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Postby classic form » Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:46 am

If dual pane windows are going to be utilzed in a site built situation it would be a good idea to design into them an easy way to replace when they fail (becuase they will). Having to tear apart structure to replace failed windows is not an ideal window in my opinion. If the 1x blocking (or whatever is used) is installed with square drive screws it would minimize damage compared to if they were nailed in place.

Mine are all single pane and we have been considering adding another single pane on the inside and "blocking" it in place making a dual pane without them being sealed and gas filled, in reality they would be like adding storm windows but built in. There would be about a 1 inch space between them. The air between the windows should buffer the noise and outside temps enough to justify the cost I'm guessing.

Slim...did you add another pane to all of your windows or just the colored glass ones? Did you install inside or outside? Have you had any moisture problems between the panes? I'm wondering if they should incorporate a gap at the bottom allowing air/moisture build up to escape...I don't think it would cancel out the benifits of having two panes. Besides noise reduction have you seen much in the way of energy savings?

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not the way to go-

Postby JGropp » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:30 am

CF- Those of us designing MCMs
way back then soon learned that
double-paning windows ourselves
was not the way to go.

Many inevitable failures taught us
that the insulating units had to be
made in a factory to our sizes and
guaranteed. Tht's when my detail
became practical. JG

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Postby Slim and Gabby » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:46 am

CF, all the windows in front are double pane, I guess the colored ones might be considered triple. The new windows have a .25-inch gap, but not gas filled. It does stay warmer, and lots quieter too, which I like A LOT! Not that we live in a loud neighborhood, I just don't like hearing the neighbor's dogs barking while I'm watching a movie; that's why we have a cat, they're physically incapable of barking, though sometimes we get sonic booms:



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A WikiPedia article worth reading-

Postby JGropp » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:54 am

A WikiPedia article worth reading-
all the ins and outs of insulated gl..


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Postby classic form » Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:38 pm

Jerry, what kind of inevitable failures can be expected by adding an interior "storm" pane of glass to an existing single pain? What has your experience shown?
A quick read of the link you provided shows factory built double pane last 10-20 years with 12 years in the north (southern facing). If I had to replace all my windows every 12 years (hell, even every 20 years) this house would be going on its third set at the least and fifth set at the most. Not exactly inexpensive. Which leads me back to the fact that it would be helpful to make the windows easily replaceable using something other than nails to build the window on-site, that way at least the labor would be minimized.

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Postby johnnyapollo » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:03 pm

If small trim screws were used instead of nails it would solve the problem - I'm going that route on my window updates (still have the living areas in the front to replace) instead of nails. The current double-panes have all pretty much failed (they were replaced in the 80s). The custom window manufacturers will only guarantee frameless rectangles for 10 years and trapezoids/odd shapes for 5 years. That's using a large, reputable firm (Vitra) - not sure about the smaller companies. To get a double-paned, argon filled (called "Low-E") frameless they have to be made off site apparently - I'm not sure if any installers are equiped to create the gas fill on location.

Regarding the storm windows on the inside - the issue is that if you're in an area with temperature extremes, you get condensate inside the glass layers which drips to the sill - it's trapped in there and you end up with at minimum water staining and worst case rot. My current failed windows have a similar condition where the centers of the glass cloud up with condensation when the temps fall below 30 degrees. Even the newer windows do the same below 20 degrees. I'm not sure about the engineering behind the insulated frames, but they mostly prevent the condensation from happening. I'm thinking it has to do with less heat transfer along the edges - something that a bit of caulk and wood trim doesn't accomplish well. My aluminum sliders are the worst culprits - I have to wake up every cold morning and blot up as much water as possible to keep the floors from soaking.

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Postby classic form » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:28 pm

I think the problem is that there is no place for the moisture to escape. My jalousie windows have inside storms and they don't have any problem at all. The single panes right next to them fog up in the bathroom after/during a shower but the jalousies stay clear. The temp. of the storm is warmer than the single panes as well. This tells me that they are keeping the cold out better than the single panes and that adding something similar (inside storm) to the singles should help...without fogging up. What am I missing here? There's got to be something...

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"Storm windows" used to be-

Postby JGropp » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:57 pm

"Storm windows" used to be the
best amswer until insulated glass
units
came on the market. Also these
were made in the East so they had to
come over the mountains to get here.
This meant they had to be sealed up
after arrival- hence lots more failures.
Stock sizes were a problem to those
liking no restraints on our designs. J-

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Postby eggMCMuffin » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:09 pm

I've been the sometimes reluctant beneficiary of a previous owner who lavished a variety of spare no expense improvements on my home in the mid eighties. Among them, I've got storm windows all over the place; including some tricky clerestory sizes and some very large uniquely sized windows. I probably won't be doing anything about them because they do a sufficient insulating job and are of a style that's fairly innocuous from the outside when viewed from any significant distance. They also offer the added benefit of having preserving the beautifully finished natural wood frames and sills long beyond their normal lifetime. Best of all, I'm pretty sure they prevented subsequent owners from being tempted to replace everything with vinyl during the nineties. I'm just glad someone else paid for them to be done...[/list]
You are born modern, you do not become so.

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the only way to go-

Postby JGropp » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:49 pm

Image
Our Living Room "Conversation
BugOut"- later added-on by JG-
(who likes doing these projects).

Our own MCM windows have all been converted from single-pane
to factory-made insulated units using wood stops on the existing
wood frames. This is really the only way to go in my experienced
professional opinion. Jerry


See my JG WebSite below for
our 1955 Mid-Century Modern
Mercer Island, WA home which
has been completely updated.

Jerry Gropp Architect AIA PS


7620 SE 72nd St., Mercer Isl. WA

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Seaview Glass-

Postby JGropp » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:25 pm

In the NorthWest, I use Seaview
Glass Mirror and Shower Door
to
do the glazing and reglazing as well
as overhead glass and skylights on
all my projects.
Seaview Glass Mirror & Shower Door
12428 Highway 99 Everett, WA 98204
Owner Mike Porter- (425)743-9352

Jerry Gropp Architect AIA PS


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Postby classic form » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:02 pm

And there it is.

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Postby JGropp » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:10 pm


Jerry Gropp Architect AIA PS


7620 SE 72nd St., Mercer Isl. WA

98040 (206)612-7367

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JGropp2@AOL.com

WebSite:

http://jgropp2.googlepages.com/alterationsanadditions


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