Flat Roofs Don't Like Rain

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Flat Roofs Don't Like Rain

Postby tvparty » Sat Jan 08, 2005 9:49 am

I am looking for a roofer to redo a flat roof for a mid-century apt complex in West Hollywood.

Any great referrals welcome : ) :idea:

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Get lots of bids

Postby khummer » Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:50 pm

Get at least 3 bids, and make sure that your ceiling isn't affected. I let mine go too long and had a lot of ceiling challenges.

Make sure that the company you choose doesn't sell you on the roof that lasts for 30 years. Ask for the lifespan. Stick with someone who has experience with the installation of a membrane roof. Make sure they describe what kind of maintenance if any will be needed. They are coming harder to find at least in SGV.

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Postby Joe » Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:15 pm

contact your local Duro-Last rep.

http://www.duro-last.com/

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Postby johnnyapollo » Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:28 pm

After being sold on a membrane roof on my house in Atlanta (this is often referred to as a "torch-down modified" roof - it's applied in layers using a MAP gas torch), only to have it fail within 6 months, I can give you quite a bit of qualified advice.

First, if you have a flat roof, it was probably installed as a "built-up" roof, using an underlayment of felt, some type of insulative barrier (my roof had 1 inch styro board - these days they use perlite and possibly ISO board, which is actually for insulation with perlite). These boards were typically nailed - note that if your ceiling is also the roof (in my case the roof boards are the same as the 2x6 tongue-and-groove ceiling) and any wiring for lights is typically nailed to the roof under the boards (be careful and mark where the wires are) with special fasteners - then a layer of hot asphalt is applied with a mop (called hot-mopping). Over this is layed sheets of 15 or 30 pound fiberglass/asphalt felt. This is repeated, possibly twice (for 2 to 3 layers), before a cap of asphalt is hot-mopped. Onto this is spread pea gravel as ballast. The gravel also plays an important part in continuing the life of your roof - the rock reflects light away from any exposed fiberglass underneath - it's actually the UV rays of the sun that causes the most damage to this type of roof, and not the weather per se.

There are usually four avenues for a replacement/repair for this type of roof, depending on the condition (in order of cost - least to most):

1. Rolled touch up using some type of liquid barrier/sealer - the cheapest method, the gravel is brushed to the side and the sealant is applied with a roller - then the old gravel plus any extra for coverage is spread back over the roof. This is usually only good for very temporary repairs - say you need a year to get your money together for a real repair. I would actually not recommend this method but it could get you dry for a little while.

2. Torch-down Modified - with this method, a roll of thick roofing material is melted onto the existing roof using a MAP torch - can be risky as the whole roof can literally catch on fire (asphalt burns!). To meet manufacteror's specifications, the roofer should actually fasten a layer of perlite to the existing roof after brushing off the gravel (using approved fasteners), the roof edges should be built up with a nailer board, the material applied (hopefully melted onto the substrate) and new flashing installed. Typically the old flashing is left in place but cut-off where it extends to the eaves. This method works well if done correctly but understand what is really happening is that the roof will "float" on top of the existing roof. The roofer will tell you this is a 10 year roof or some such. I would consider this temporary at best - you might get 5 years without issues - but if the membrane is ever penetrated you will get wet. Also, because you are not removing the existing roof, any existing wet spots can stay saturated against the original asphalt (I added below what happened to me using this method so read on).

3. Asphalt Built-up - this is the original technique used by the builders of these homes - however it requires the removal of the original roof which can add quite a bit to the expense. Since you are pulling everything off, this is the time to replace any rotted or twisted boards. This is also a good time to locate any additional lighting and shore up any rotted beams, etc. The original flashing will be removed along with everything else. If you don't mind the look, raise the roof slightly by going to 1.5-2" of ISO board - it will add an R-value of 10-14 and improve your utility bills. You will also need to add a wood nailer around the perimeter to raise the flashing to the height of the ISO board. I've described the methods used above and this is still the most common method used on commercial buildings. This type of roof can last 20-25 years or more (manufactorer usually states 10-15, but the reality is that this last a long time).

4. Asphalt built-up with a Modified cap - this is the method that I actually chose (the most expensive method but worth it if you plan to living in your house forever). This method is similar to the Asphalt built-up above, only a hot mop-down modified membrane roof is attached to the top of the asphalt layers. This can be doubled up to extend the roof even longer.

The initial Torch-down modified roof I had put down was improperly installed. The roofer (who was supposed to be qualified with experience in this type of installation and was also highly recommended) gave me a very reasonable bid of $5k do do the roof (the roof is approximately 40 squares or 4000 square feet - I should have figured it was a scam and too good to be true) to place a membrane roof over the existing asphalt "built-up" roof. As the other bids I received were over $10k for the roof, we went for the cheap, thinking that we would get 5 or so years out of the roof - the plan was to eventually get a better roof through a complete tear-off and rebuild. We actually got about 6 months before things started to go wrong.

First, the roofer used a shovel to scrape off as much gravel as possible - this turned out to be stupid as everwhere a stone was pulled from the existing asphalt, a gap appeared in the existing roof as a potential leak. Second, the roofer did not cut off or replace the existing flashing. Third, because the substrate was not reinforced with some type of nailer, the new roof was not truely melted onto the old - the roof basically was sitting as a flat sheet on top of a sieve. Because the flashing was not replaced, the edges were not sealed - this made this worse as the roof "crawled" across its expanse, water crept under the edges and found the missing rock holes to penetrate - the result was massive leaks, with water coming down almost every wall. Every attempt to get the roofer back to fix the issue was ignored - ultimately we had to litigate (we won, but have as yet recieved no money on the judgement, nor do we anticipate we will).

When reality hit we knew we needed to do something quickly. Not wanting to get bitten twice, we heavily researched roofing methods and applications. That was when I discovered that 90% of the roofs for our type of house in the area are incorrectly installed - meaning that even if we had a claim against the manufacturor of the roof with a 10 warranty, etc., the claim would have been invalid as the gaurentee is only good if the roof was properly applied. We ended up getting 12 estimates, ranging from $7500 to $40k (ouch!). We decided to go with a real commercial roofer who did a phenominal job. The original estimate was for $14k, however we went with 1.5 inches of ISO board and replaced several hundred feet of rot, including the ends of two beams. This brought the price up to about $17K plus an extra thousand for additional wood materials.

I hope I haven't bored you all with the account above - I think the greatest lesson learned is to research the roof options, then really question the roofers to make sure they know what they are doing. Our final roofer actually had the GAF rep come out and do a core sample so that the warranty was registered with them. The cores they cut exceeded the manufacturor's specifications.

-- Best, John

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So what is the......

Postby modfan » Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:30 pm

Roof that was used on the Palm Springs Wexler designed Tropicana project?
Seems like I heard is was a lowpitch/flat fibreglass one but does anyone have more details.

All I remember from my relatives low pitch rock roof was that after each rain there was a line of pink gravel around the house exactly under where the overhang was-If you look at it now (some 20-30 years later) almost every house in their tract has been replaced with a composition shingle roof of some type.

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Postby johnnyapollo » Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:40 am

From my research, shingle roofs fail in my climate (South-east). The general pitch of the MCM houses in my neigherbood are so shallow that water tends to creep under the edges of the shingles and they do not dry completely. This causes them to rot (you'll see the green of algae on them or black from mildew) and decreases the life quite a bit (by at least half). There is a technique that some roofers use of double lapping the felt beneath the shingles that's supposed to help. Most of the roofers that I talked to that had experience with flat or near-flat roofs abhored the use of shingles.

I have some friends in the neighorbood that bought their house with a new shingle roof. Now, some 6 years later they have numerous leaks. It appears the roofer nailed the new roof directly into the existing built-up asphalt roof underneath. The recommended technique is to nail new plywood decking on top of the existing bulit-up roof then attach the new felt/shingles to it, raising the drip edge.

I guess in my thinking, only a roof similar to the original techinque (or possibly a metal roof system) is worth the risks - at least for my home.

-- Best, John

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Great reply

Postby khummer » Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:07 am

Thanks John for the best discussion on membrane roofing techniques yet. I am printing and filing so when I have to go through this again in 6 years. I'll be ready!

Also for those selling a modern home or buying one, the home inspector that I hired said that my membrane roof needed replacement after only 5 years. I thought that was a bit odd, and got some bids from a commercial roofer and residential with experience on membrane roofing - only to find out he was so wrong, and it was installed properly. It could have affected the purchase of the home significantly.

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Postby rambling » Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:44 pm

Joe wrote:contact your local Duro-Last rep.

http://www.duro-last.com/


Thanks, Joe, for the Durolast info.

I happened to be in Grants Pass, Oregon, last month, so I stopped by Duro-Last just to look at a sample, but I left a total convert. Not only is the heat deflection of a Durolast roof a big draw for my house, but the fact that it is actually fire retardant is a huge plus here in Southern California. There is a framed photo hanging at the entrance to the factory floor of a large commercial building whose Durolast roof had a charred hole in it. The story is that the roof put the fire out before the fire department even arrived on the scene.

The problem is: I've got a flat roof that can be seen from our upper patio and by three of our neighbors up the hill (none of whose view is directly of our roof). Does anyone think a vinyl membrane roof (in white? gray?) would be that much of an eyesore to outweigh its advantages?

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Postby Joe » Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:51 am

if you can see the roof, bright white may be too much. Gray does off about 85% reflectivity.

I really like the look of tar and gravel, using white rock in mixed sizes. I would like to see a mixed roof using a vinyl membrane and rock texture (performance of a membrane, look of tar and gravel).

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response from previous post:

Postby modfan » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:26 am

I would like to see a mixed roof using a vinyl membrane and rock texture (performance of a membrane, look of tar and gravel).


Is there such a thing? Seems that way the rain won't drain off the gravel
after a storm and the bigger rocks from rolling off.

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Postby SDR » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:59 pm

Would the rocks potentially damage the membrane, if walked upon?

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dual roof system

Postby PortlandModern » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:48 pm

Duro Last roofs actually are "free floating" over the decking and are not fastened securely to the roof deck. (They require wind vents to alleviate pressure and to make sure that strong winds don't rip the whole thing off). Structures move--expanding and contracting with the weather. Many post and beam dwellers tesitfy to the noises that their homes make as temperature and humidity change. This "free floating" characteristic of properly installed membrane roofs allows the structure to do it's thing and still maintain the integrity of the envelope.

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Postby Joe » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:18 am

on a pitched roof, a ridge vent is used. Before membrane roof, yes, there was a ton of creaking and cracking noises in the morning (sun up) and in the evening (sun down). We'd joke and say "the neighbors upstairs must be home"

Actually, relieving that pressure will help maintain the structure for years to come. But if I had to do it over, and I will some day, I would go with tar and gravel with a good ridge-line vent.

SDR: yes, rocks would puncture the roofing in it's current form. I wish we could have the kind of performance of a membrane roof and the looks of tar and gravel. Tar and gravel, if maintained properly, can last 50-60 years. I still see them on houses in the NW built in the '50s.

Modfan: why would rocks roll off a membrane and not tar? I am not considering doing this, I just wish the I could have the look of tar and gravel and the performance of a membrane.

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response

Postby modfan » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:33 am

Modfan: why would rocks roll off a membrane and not tar? I am not considering doing this, I just wish the I could have the look of tar and gravel and the performance of a membrane.


My question exactly, I thought if there was such a product that somehow the rocks were glued (for lack of a better word) to the surface.

Rock roofs look cool but after my aunt/uncle owned a house with a rock roof (circa 1962)-after rainstorms there was this line of pink gravel surrounding the house on the ground and eventually there were dark spots where the tar paper was bare to the elements no gravel was left.
If you go to the housing tract now where they used to live almost none of the houses have the original rock roof-in fact the builder in later phases went with a (wood-hey this was circa 1964) shingle roof-and almost all of them have been replaced with composition or spanish/concrete tile.

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Postby moderns-r-us » Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:08 am

I am no flat roofing expert, (Ask me about metal roofs sometime) but many membrane roofs placed on flat (1/4":12") roofs use a "ballast system." Ballast consists mostly of rounded, golf ball size river rock that keeps an unadhered membrane from lifting in the wind. There are obvious weight implications to this system. This was very common in the nineties. These days you see a lot more fully adhered membranes. I have never seen ballast used on a pitched roof, 1:12 or greater. Roofs of 1:12 and greater seem best served by a adhered system of some sort.

While I have never used a tar and gravel system, my understanding is, that the gravel is "seeded" into the tar and therefore becomes imbeded in the roof. This should prevent the gravel from sluffing off of the roof after a few initial rains. The gravel used on these roofs is angular and pea sized.
Last edited by moderns-r-us on Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Maybe things have improved since then

Postby modfan » Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:20 am

My aunt/uncle's house was built circa 1962 and I guess that was the best 'available roofing technology' back then.

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Re: Maybe things have improved since then

Postby moderns-r-us » Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:35 am

modfan wrote:My aunt/uncle's house was built circa 1962 and I guess that was the best 'available roofing technology' back then.


It served people well for a lot of years!

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Postby Joe » Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:14 am

tar and gravel is one of the oldest viable roofing options today. It's also one of the cheapest. If maintained, can last 50+ years. I am not aware of another roof system which can say that.

my membrane is adhered, though it does float a few inches where the roof of the masterbedroom and main section of the house meet. I have a 2/12 pitch roof. Originally, it was tar and gravel with 9 inch fascia. In a couple years, I plan to do a complete tear off, replace the decking that wasn't replaced 3 years ago, restore the original fascia, and re-roof with tar and gravel. I know... sounds crazy. But go through the SFV some time and check out the P & Ks with the mixed sized rock roofs. Very cool.

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Postby moderns-r-us » Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:41 am

Joe:

Maybe add some insulation too?

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Postby Joe » Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:05 am

insulation is happening this fall in the three bedrooms when I replace the wallboard ceilings. I did it to the living area last fall with 4.5 rigid between the joists and made a big difference. wend from an R7 to an R31.

That, and the absence of the carpet should increase heating efficiency quite a bit. Go read the mcmansion mold article I posted. Talk about sustainable living. They were on to something 50 years ago!

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Postby SDR » Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:17 am

Joe -- what sort of slab heating does your house have? Is it hot air in ducts? Do you like it? I continue to believe that some sort of floor heat is the best in terms of use and comfort.

On the issue of "gravel" roof cover ending up on the ground, would a certain minimum size, angular rock tend to stay on the roof, by virtue of the weight of the pieces? I recall seeing some pretty chunky-looking, various-sized white(?) rock on some low-pitched roofs. A nice look. . .and a certain uniformity could be achieved if the same thing (?) formed the driveway paving and/or some perimeter landscaping (I always like the image of structure rising from a bed or "pool" of crushed rock!).

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Postby roxy500 » Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:29 am

We have deep eaves (or overhang, if you you will) and at at the lowest edge of the roof (where the water runs down a spout into my new rain-collection barrel) there is a fault in the membrane. It apparently has leaked into our massive eaves and stained the wood. We're going to do something about it this summer, but I wondered if I should pursue the paperwork from two owners ago that had a 12 year warranty (this is about the 10th year) or just go for a whole new roof, using the suggestions of action here on LL? I think the people just before us patched areas around non-original skylights so the warranty might be invalid anyway.

Example of our thick eaves: Image
On a side note, our roof is white, with light grey patches and is easily seen by our next door neighbor's seattle style mini-mcmansion-fake-craftsman-on-steroids-home-depot-fixtured house.

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Postby johnnyapollo » Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:35 am

The warranty will only be valid if the roof was installed to spec (the warranty only covers material falure). If the manufacturor can prove that it wasn't installed to spec, they won't pay the claim and your only recourse is to sue the installer - tough to do - the average business life expectency of a roofing company is 3 years - truely "fly by night" when compared to other busnesses in the construction trade (average is 7 years).

In my own case, I was able to persue the installer and won my court case with a $17K judgement - however since the roofer basically has no assests, the best I could do was lein his property. I'm the fourth lein on his assets (after the state for back taxes) so I doubt if I'll ever see a dime of that judgement.

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Postby Joe » Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:55 am

roxy, you probably won't see any warranty since you are third owner. as for your neighbor, if you reroof, go with a brite white membrane. they hate you!

as for suing contractors, read the mold article I posted...

I have said it before, and will say it again, ALL CONTRACTORS ARE EVIL (well, except for the good ones)

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Postby roxy500 » Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:16 am

Joe wrote:roxy, you probably won't see any warranty since you are third owner. as for your neighbor, if you reroof, go with a brite white membrane. they hate you!

as for suing contractors, read the mold article I posted...

I have said it before, and will say it again, ALL CONTRACTORS ARE EVIL (well, except for the good ones)


This is the first house I've ever owned so the idea of having someone come do something, have it go wrong, and suing sounds so terrible. My husband owned a house before we were married and hired a contractor who stole $700 and disappeared, without doing any work. It was actually my fault, since I was "helping" get the house ready for sale and trusted the guy enough to believe his story that he needed a down payment for materials.

Our neighbors hate us? But they seem so nice!

I'll find the file with the original roofing info, call the people, and let you know what they say - anticipate laughter or a disconnected message. The files on the house have mysteriously disappeared from the file cabinet so as soon as I find them...

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Postby Joe » Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:38 am

I wasn't suggesting you sue anyone. But by the mold article, it seems trendy.

OK, so don't piss off the mcmansion next door. that's probably for the best :wink:

Try to locate contractor referred by word of mouth, or DIY.

Just be careful who you hire. Many folks will offer the wrong solution because that's how it's done on new construction and they don't know any better. Find someone who understands the construction details and won't offer you a simple, often incorrect method. Go with folks who have a lot of experience and won't attempt to change the form and function of what is original.

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Postby moderns-r-us » Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:06 pm

No. 1 mistake in putting down a new roof on a post and beam home:

Using screws or nails that are too long and penetrating through the tongue & groove decking into the interior of the house!

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Postby Joe » Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:06 pm

yes, the roofing company who put on my dura-last membrane forgot about my exposed decking in my overhangs and carport. they turned a two day job into a 5 day job. I didn't trust them to fix the holes. :x

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Postby moderns-r-us » Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:24 pm

I have seen five Drummond homes where this has happened. You would think a roofer would check before screwing or maybe check after a few screws before doing a whole roof.

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Postby Joe » Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:28 pm

brain storming here...

what about a rubber coated, standing seam (wide seams) metal roof with a rock topping? Think it could work? The metal would be exposed and coated with liquid rubber, something like Elastoseal. Then coated with white rock to protect the rubber.

the rubber would keep the bottom layer of rock from moving.

maybe a rock topping over an EDPM roof. Anyone doing that?

maybe rock topping over modified bitumen roof?


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