HELP!!! with Kitchen Wall cabinets

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HELP!!! with Kitchen Wall cabinets

Postby Futura Girl » Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:08 pm


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Re: HELP!!! with Kitchen Wall cabinets

Postby Stephen » Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:16 pm

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Postby SDR » Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:08 pm

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Postby SDR » Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:37 pm


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Postby tig64105 » Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:42 am

Stephen suggested exactly what I was going to. The product that Rockler sells is made by Haefele.

I've looked at it a number of times, but haven't tried it yet. Still trying to find just the right application.

It's also easy to build cabinet doors. Build a frame using pocket holes (try a Kreg pocket hole jig), take a router and route the inside opening a 1/4" and insert 1/8" tempered glass. I just recently did this with a vanity I'm building (pictures soon!).

SDR is also correct on how easy it is to build sliding doors. In fact, if you wanted to get them "fancy" you could get an extruded aluminum Haefele track and use in the same manner that he suggested with the 1 x 2 strips.

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Postby moderns-r-us » Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:58 am

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Postby SDR » Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:03 pm

Thank you, Mr mru ! Of course, there's more to be said about sliding doors; there are several kinds of channel tracks made for them. Brown plastic or aluminum are two common ones. Plastic actually slides and wears as well as aluminum in a sliding-friction application. If one is making cabinets from scratch these tracks can be mounted inside, dadoing them into the material for a more minimalist appearance. Again, the upper tracks have deeper grooves than the lower ones, to permit lifting out.

Doors heavier than 1/4" to 1/2" material should probably run on high-density fiber track set into narrow grooves; the doors are fitted on the bottom with small plastic shoes that run on the edge of the track. This reduces the friction of a full-contact bottom edge running on channel. And, there are roller systems for heavier doors, similar to what is on your patio sliders.

But the simplicity of light-weight 1/4" panels in 5/16" grooves is hard to beat -- if the rails are on the front of the cabinet, the cabinet box itself is hidden; all you see is the top and bottom rails and the doors. On the other hand, seeing the edge of the box with the doors inside is handsome, too. If grooves are made directly into the cabinet box material, the lower (weight-bearing) grooves can be lined with a simple drop-in strip of plastic laminate (Formica), which will provide a lifetime wearing surface. (Such grooves don't like wet or sticky foreign substances in them; the laminate strips can be removed and cleaned when necessary.)


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Postby SDR » Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:09 pm

F-girl -- what are the finishes and colors in your new kitchen ?

To sum up: the 24" IKEA wall cabinets would be easy to fit for sliding doors -- IF the assembly hardware and/or dowels are not within one inch of the front of the cabinet.

Go for the widest cabinets that will fit, take the top and bottom panels to someone with a table saw, make a pair of grooves at the front of the inside surface of these parts, with 1/4" deep (high) grooves on the bottoms and 1/2" deep grooves on the tops. Make formica strips for the bottom grooves -- see above.

(If the assembly hardware would be impacted by this operation, you'll have to add wood sliding grooves to the front of the cabinet, or install one of the available track channels to the inside, as discussed above.)

Assemble the cabinets as usual (remember to use glue on the wood dowels) and then measure for 1/4" tempered Masonite or plywood door panels. These will be 3/8" to 7/16" taller than the clear height inside the cabinet, and 1/4" wider than one half the inside clear width. A 3/4" hole neatly drilled near the edge of each door would be a period-appropriate "handle" -- or there are press-in recessed cups made for this purpose.

Piece of cake ! Unlike any other type of door, levelling and squareness of the cabinet installation is not critical to the appearance and operation of these simple sliding doors (though I'm sure you plan to install your cabinets level and plumb).

Painted Masonite may have been the material of your Eichler cabinets ? (The so-called "tempered" product is the dark brown panel that is smooth on both sides; the lighter-colored and screen-textured Masonite would be a slightly funkier but still quite Modern alternative -- you could alternate the two different face textures, or even make extra sets of doors (the cheapest cabinet doors ever !) in different colors or finishes for a quick-change kitchen re-do - like changing table linens. . .

Black/White; Masonite/Mahogany; translucent/opaque . . . :cheers:

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Postby Futura Girl » Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:44 pm

my mind is mush.....
too much for me to take all in.

but i get that i must buy the ikea bases and somehow find a reputible cabinet make here in vegas to cut the grooves. i think i can handle that.

:-k

i think what i will do is print out what you wrote above and just ask them if they "can do that?"

but this way - i can get sliding glass doors or perforates masonite or ??? and everything and the wall cabinets will still match the bases.
oh - the color is just the no frills no decoration applaud white finish

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Postby SDR » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:41 pm

Cool. In short -- yes, good idea, and yes. Sketches will appear shortly. If you tell me the name of the upper cabs you will be getting, I can be very specific about the details.

Practically any finished edge on glass you might have made, will slide nicely. Perforated Masonite -- perfect. There are probably plastics I haven't seen that would be neat, too; there are all kinds of tints and textures -- ditto with glass. Really, it's endless; I don't know why everybody doesn't do it this way. (I once had the bright idea to hang window shades in front of wall shelves, for a minimalist upper "cabinet" -- never had the occasion to try it.)

Love, SDR
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Postby Futura Girl » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:05 pm

love ya SDR!

we are using the AKURUM kitchen system form ikea.

24" wide x 24" tall (2)
30" wide x 24" tall (2)
36" wide x 36" tall (2)

basic layout forthcoming...

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Postby SDR » Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:20 pm

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Postby Futura Girl » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:29 pm

haven't had time to get the drawing done...

but the
2 36s are for a 72" run
2 30s for a 60" run
2 24s for a 48" run

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Postby BOXOUTBM » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:58 pm


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Postby Futura Girl » Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:39 am

here's the floor plan
http://www.lottaliving.com/caddyshack/kitchen.jpg

here's the before and then the NOW
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

and that's how your lotta living hostess is living!
who's bringing chinese?

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Postby SDR » Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:49 am

Cool. Yeah, a half-finished kitchen is always lovely. . . I like the strong orange ! Great to have the plan. So, you're thinking all uppers at 24" height ?

I'm off to IKEA. I think we're talking some plastic track in a groove in the cabinets -- I know it's available online (Outwater Plastics, etc) but I'll see what's at Home Depot. Let's see how these cabinet boxes are asembled. By cutting a little off the front vertical edges where a pair of cabinets come together, we could have fewer and wider doors, which work better and probably look better too.

Thanks for the ideas, Boxout. I agree. I'm going to look at the swing-ups; that's another Euro-idea that's catching on big. (I love your signature. . .!)

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Postby SDR » Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:01 pm

Okey-dokey. Having studied the options, if you wanted simple opaque sliding doors I'm recommending having some hard maple tracks milled and drilled, and screwing them to the cabinets after installation. Here are scaled sketches of the detail and the intended appearance.

A
Image
Image

Any 1/8" or 1/4" material will fit into these tracks. Bore for the screws full depth with a 1/8" drill (you'll need 44 screws). The screw holes will be filled (Bondo works well for painted surfaces) and the tracks painted (keep paint out of the grooves, I think). Or wood filler (the lightest -- try ash or maple) and stain.

Page 36 of the IKEA catalog seems to show the AVSIKT sliding glass doors in two heights -- but I wasn't able to confirm this. The pair I saw installed (30" height) were $139.

SDR :cheers:
Last edited by SDR on Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Futura Girl » Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:48 pm

okay - so i think i'm understanding it.
if i change the middle set of cabinets and make them a little wider (there is room - i doublechecked)

i can have all of the cabinet be multiples of 24! and the cabinet doors will all match :-)
i can do all sorts of door combinations then. mix and match galore!!!

Image

so i just need to buy all the 24x 24 base cabinets, hang them - have those external trim pieces milled - and we attach them.

OR are there any companies who offer tracks in steel or metal that we can just cut down to the lengthes we need (4' and 6')
????

i'd love them to be steely or something - then i don't have to paint them.

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Postby SDR » Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:41 pm

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Postby SDR » Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:53 pm

Stee-e-ely. . .*auugghhh* [that's Homer, drooling] Yeah, having one door size is ideal, for all possible reasons.

I'll see what's in the catalogs at work -- there are anodized extrusions for this, but I'd like to see an extension off the bottom (top) to fasten it to the outside (or the inside ?) of the cabinet. I've been thinking about it. . .
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Postby Futura Girl » Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:43 pm

let me be clearer - nah - don't want to cut the applaud doors down at all.

1) i'll mount 24x24 cabinets all over the place (no doors - just the boxes)

2) then i'll attach a trim piece with the grooves for sliding doors in front of all the cabinets.
(this is where i'd like to find a steel piece to hold the sliders instead of milled wood.)

3) then i'll make all sorts of fun door fronts, from pegboard to opaque glass and slide them willy nilly.

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Postby SDR » Sat Jan 13, 2007 7:06 pm

Got it (our posts crossed, I think) and I applaud the choices. (I read in today's design section that pink and black are back for 2007. . .!) It'll be so neat.

There really should be an extrusion specifically for this application. (Someone told me once how much an aluminum extrusion die for a new shape costs -- maybe we could go into business ?) It just needs to slide firmly onto 3/4" material, with barbs to keep it in place. Unfortunately, with metric panels and other material inconsistencies, it's amazing how many different "3/4" " thicknesses there are !

I'm determined to find you something; this is a design problem that's been on my mind for years, actually. I've drawn a number of box/with/applied/sliding/door ideas in the past. . .
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Postby Futura Girl » Sat Jan 13, 2007 8:17 pm

excellent!
sdr rules!!!!!

we are gonna try to drive down to ikea tomorrow and return the monstrous 30" tall cabinets that were just too big for our kitchen and at least get the 24" ones and get them hung in the meantime.

we shall find tracks!

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Postby Futura Girl » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:04 pm

look what i found!





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Postby SDR » Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:53 pm

Yup -- those excellent examples are the normal and most widely used types for installation within the cabinet box, and I was hoping to be able to incorporate one of them in your cabinets, until I realized what would have to be done to accomodate it:

B
Image

It's doable, but we are left with those little pieces of the side panels showing at the center, and the tracks have to be cut through them, as well.

If we imagine turning the cabinet boxes on their sides, so the sides become the tops and bottoms, this scenario suddenly looks a lot better. The downside: predrilled holes in the sides, for shelf pins, end up on the top and bottom, and new ones have to be drilled where needed. Of course, in your 24" high cabs, there will presumably be only one shelf ?

There is a connecter about 1" back from the front of the cab at each corner, too -- but we might just be able to squeeze the narrowest track in there.

Let me open the cabinet I bought ($20 -- such a deal !) and look at the other ramification: the hanging system, which seems to happen at the upper rear corners. If that is switchable, then I could really see doing this !

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Last edited by SDR on Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby egads » Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:35 pm


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Postby SDR » Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:22 pm

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Postby SDR » Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:24 pm

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Postby tig64105 » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:27 am


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Postby SDR » Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:24 am

Yeah, the hot-melt glue joins to particle-board and other materials quite well -- it replicates the job that our edgebanders do. Fun, too !

Here's what three IKEA Akurum 24 x 24 wall cabs, rotated and modified for sliding doors, would look like:

C
Image

(Thickness of parts is exaggerated to show detail) Note screws added thru top (and bottom) to account for reduced effectiveness of IKEA fasteners and dowels when cabinet is turned sideways. Plastic or aluminum or wood track is glued into dadoes after cabinets are ganged together. As noted above, interior depth is reduced. . .

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